Curse

Deviant Angel · Feb 20, 2010, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

In tackling Shadow Form, we decided to take a larger look at the issues involved. We didn’t want to simply nerf Shadow Form and cause a mass migration to another overpowered build, only to nerf that after players start using it. It’s not possible to predict all of the clever combinations that players may invent, but we’d like to establish clearer guidelines for ourselves and for players as to what is and isn't acceptable. This should help us with any future buffs or nerfs related to end game PvE.

Based on our testing, observation and discussion, we expect to make changes to Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, and to a skill or two used in 600-Smite builds.

So after 5 years, you want to finally tell us that doing anything with less than 8 people is unacceptable?

We were using SF for farming before it was maintainable. It got the job done and we could not gather every monster on the map and tank them until our fingers turned blue. Why it wasn't killed shortly after the discovery that it could be maintained indefinitely is something that always confused me. I'm all for that nerf.

The 600 on the other hand... seriously? You need 1-2 other players to make it work and even then you're a paper tank. When I have another player or a hero sucking up loot that could be mine, it's not solo farming. Do you also want to punish me for taking a full H/H group at 3am when the few friends that still play are sleeping and the outposts have 3 people that don't speak a word of english?

As for the monks that run dungeons... 30 mins with obnoxious teenagers is much better than the hour or more that you would spend with those same obnoxious teenagers in a balanced group. Besides, majority of the "runners" ask you to bring damage and/or heals. It doesn't matter if it's to kill the last few monsters, heal the smiter that has the enchants on bass ackwards, or whatever else. It's not really a run if you have to participate. Argue with me all you want, but it's pretty much paying somebody to lead the group and tank.

I've accomplished all my PvE goals and I own pretty much everything I ever dreamed of owning. I have a feeling that most of the anti-farming crowd is in the same boat. It's easier to be against something when it's of absolutely no use to you anymore, amirite? We saw the same thing happen with Ursan. People used it to accomplish their goals, and then suddenly everybody was on the "OMG Kill it with fire before other people get the titles and stuff I have!" bandwagon.

Unfortunately, the damage to the game and it's economy has been done. Unless you're planning to give us some good reasons to keep doing dungeons and elite missions, you're doing nothing more than putting a bandaid on a severely infected wound.

The rewards for doing them are far from... rewarding. Give us some real incentives for completing them. A couple of gems or greens with generic stats and skins aren't going to make anybody want to spend an hour or more of their life on a mission. You really wonder why people are favoring runners over balanced groups?

If farming is going to be frowned upon, how would you prefer that players make money? Begging? Scamming? Playing through the storyline over and over? Doing the same zquests over and over? Cage dancing in LA?

Besides the 600/smite thing, I think some of the other updates look interesting.

I really hope you know what you're doing.

upier · Feb 20, 2010, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Btw, this:

Quote:

Steelfang Slash will have its recharge time removed.

is going to be cute if they do it in PvE also.
It makes you wonder why they decided to do anything with hammers in that case though.

Mouse at Large · Feb 20, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I really don't see the need to nerf OF. If it was such a "problem" it would have been getting a similar amount of criticism to SF. It's use is pretty situational and compared to SF it's practically underpowered.

Imho, and given the perception that eles are of limited support utility in HM, I can only see a nerf to OF further marginalising them. OF is a useful not an overpowered elite.

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 20, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Just got my warrior out, ran a trusty hammer build over it, went out and had a plod about. Couldn't help wondering, why the hell is it again, that I'd bother using this over a scythe?

Couldn't think of many reasons. KD isn't enough reason in PvE..Not really when with w/d KD is pointless as mobs don't live long enough for it to matter whether they were KD'd when u pwned them or upright..

This buff to DBS, it's sweet, but is it really gonna be enough to make the Hammer a reason not to run W/D, W/A or any of the other WE builds? Furthermore, is the fact that it'll basically be a case of DBS or don't bother? That just looks like more /gimmick to me. I'm skeptical..Anyone else feeling this?

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 20, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Good changes, I guess.

I really hope 600/smite doesn't die, because it's the only fun way to do Vanquishing, particularly as a Monk, and I haven't finished those tracks. Long way away from finishing, indeed.

Pleikki · Feb 20, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Seems Awesome sofar! cant wait to see the actual update next week!

Owik Gall · Feb 20, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Impressed at what they are doing for the tactics line. Not excruciatingly dramatic as some ppl have requested, but a whole lot better still. Especially for Shield Stance and Soldiers Stance. One thing though is that despite these changes I don't see these competing with the warriors meta of D-slash SY builds. Unless anyone can make anything from the revamped tactics skills to match up in terms of usefulness at a high degree. I'm optimistic that it's possible, though.

A few notes:
"None Shall Pass"
Team wide runners and/or kiters ain't going to have it that easy now.

Shove
Finally! It looks like it's actually an elite skill. A Bulls Strike on steroids no less.

"Retreat!"
Might replace "Fall Back!" well enough with the added block effect. Although I have the feeling there will be paras or warriors that will bring both and use one after the other for practically 2 Fall Backs...

"To the Limit!"
I'm not so sure how much HP increase would count as modest, but if anything this could throw Endure Pain out the window and into the dump-bin.

Soldier's Stance (PvE)
Just look at it... Do I really need to say anything about it?... Fast attack along with blocking in one stance! Provided it's only for PvE.

Shield Stance
This maybe the one and only skill that will make warriors be pure warriors and not try to use secondaries at all. Could be so.

"Fear Me!"
I can't see how this can get OP for warriors. It's more like it buffed only to have it be another secondary class type skill. How? Sins.

Oh, and one more thing. Steelfang Slash possibly losing it's 1 sec recharge. For goodness sakes it's about freaking time! If they go through with this it'll make my PvE playing much more fun again. *cross fingers in hopes it will go through*

rkhanna · Feb 20, 2010, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

"Fear Me!"
I can't see how this can get OP for warriors.

Scythe Wielding Warriors just became OP'er than Sins with the new Fear me...pending attribute point adjustment ofc. Only thing Sins had going for them was crit hits...Warriors get comparable critical hits now, but also insane AP on the spammable Power Attacks and Whirlwind Attack..so...hmm....

BlueXIV · Feb 20, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Seems to me ANet just wants to get rid of splits in high-end areas with the nerfbat to SF/600/OF, because honestly that's the only tactic that is going to be truly affected by the update. Apparently that's an "unacceptable" way to play the game.

While I don't mind the nerf to SF all too much, I find it kinda weird that ANet decides to tell us now that splitting is unacceptable. I mention only splitting because that's the only that is going to be truly nerfed by this update. Tank and spank will still manage to work, one way or another. It doesn't matter if the tank will need to be an ER ele with a spellbreaker casted on him, or a warrior with the new stances, but that will still be the prevailing gimmick build.

I'll say it now, I perma pretty much all the time on Guild Wars. Because of some contests, I have way more money than I can ever spend, but I still enjoy doing UW speed clears because I feel like it's the only fun thing left in Guild Wars PVE. Speedclears isn't all about farming anymore, it's more about trying to get the best times. It's almost a game within Guild Wars itself, one that takes a bit more brain than pulling with a bow, send heroes in, spamming skills, or "nuking" where you c+faceroll.

That said, I do believe SF was overpowered and needed a good nerf. I'm kind of sad to see it gone though because along with the nerf to OF/600, it means the end of splitting in PvE. I'm really going to miss that, because it means all high end pve is going to be tank and spank, which is frankly boring. I'm tired of the ball+1234. I really don't want it to come back to UW, which I'm guessing will happen. Oh well, it was fun when it lasted.

PS:
It kinda irritates me when people say NERF SF, BUT DON'T TOUCH 600. Why is this? How is 600 any better than permaing? It still allows for dungeon runnings and such, just not as fast as permaing. Is it because you think 600 takes more skill? Because it honestly doesn't. I have 600ed a lot before permaing, and I stopped because it was boring. And about the OF, if that wasn't nerfed, we woulda had a build for UWSC OFway as soon as the update was released.

manitoba1073 · Feb 20, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

LMAO is all I got to say about this prelimanary update lol.

AlsPals · Feb 20, 2010, 10:37 AM // 10:37

The lack of mesmer buffs is kinda distressing...but overall this looks to be a good update, but one that shouldnt have taken as long. On the other hand, im all for killing farming, even though I was a compulsive farmer for various reasons. The thing is...drops effin suck. What used to be worth something was ground to paste(Chest of Many things and Hard Mode placing items in everyones hands). I would say to make dungeons and higher end areas more playable, just do the following:Retract that loot scaling B.S.(worst thing to happen to GW), even if its for Anti farm code again, and double the current chest drops in Dungeons(2 goes to 4, 4 to 8), give regular missions chests that spawn closer to where bonus completion would take place, and look at reducing cluster mobs in End Game areas(esp DOA) in favor of more versatile mod bars that sync.

drkn · Feb 20, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

From working on the skill balance in the TK, I can say that it's not as easy as it sounds :P Each change, no matter how small it seems, travels through the game to every monster, npc, etc

i think that TK should learn to communicate with the playerbase. that very concern, about buffing monsters along with players, has been raised in numerous threads over guru and you tell it here as it was something we, the normal players, wouldn't even think about because it's Hard Job.
get one or two persons to read the major boards, like guru, and even reply or ask questions. gather information. see what community expects. i don't know who actually prepares skill updates now - TK, ANet or both - and to what excess, but i think that TK has a lot to say and should be more open to the playerbase, than ANet.

Quote:

Primary mesmers aren't super amazing, but they aren't terrible if you know how do use them.

i've heard this very sentence dozens of times. seriously. and it usually is said by people who a) never played mesmers in end-game, b) played gimmicks for two areas and moved back to their main warrior or necromancer.
if you say that primairy mesmers aren't terrible if one knows how to use them, please use one of the mesmer threads (links posted in the fourth post in this very thread) and enlighten us how should we use our primairies.
if not, i think it's fine to disregard your mesmer-related posts in this thread.

don't get me totally wrong, it's great that an update finally comes our way. but i have to agree with Upier this time - if you have limited resources, you should distribute them amongst the most broken stuff, not buffing those that are wanted and can even easily solo vanquish (aka rits and their spirits).

Arduin · Feb 20, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

It’s not possible to predict all of the clever combinations that players may invent, but we’d like to establish clearer guidelines for ourselves and for players as to what is and isn't acceptable.

Actions speaks louder than words (or in this case, the absent of actions for the past year). But we will see what next week will bring, and how you intend us to play your game.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

One note for people posting in this thread - try to see the bigger picture.

It's easy to concentrate on YOUR gameplay above anything else, but that's not the point of balancing ... otherwise each of you would be playing a singleplayer game, being provided individual patches covering YOUR area of interests.

Seeing how some people arbitrarily judge the update as horrific or terribly bad with really little effort, makes me question the point of even writing such negative posts, due to very little thought process involved?

Predicting the meta is like gambling, and above all else, it's the Anet which is best at it. They created this game and they know how it works, even if the complexity of maintaining the entire balance system means intense slowdowns of balance updates or even impacts their long-term quality.

Have some understanding, really.

Especially aimed at people which no longer play the game itself, but the flaming and constant, cynical negativity has become a personal trait, if not a national sport in some cases.

drkn · Feb 20, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

It's easy to concentrate on YOUR gameplay above anything else, but that's not the point of balancing ... otherwise each of you would be playing a singleplayer game, being provided individual patches covering YOUR area of interests.

take a look at the effects then. i know that not everything was given - and i underline this part - but all the discussion is based on what actually was, so...

* will hammer be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as knockdowns are still inferior to simply killing

* will tactics be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as killing is better than 'some' use of the tactics line, and if you need support, take a paragon rather than a warrior who can achieve high DPS (therefore, choosing DPS on strength over tactics)

* will ritualists use newly buffed skills?
- maybe, but usually those that got bored with spirit spamming. and after they get their break, they will spirit spam again, just a little bit slower. n/rt abuse spreads a bit and that's actually all.

* was the ritualist buff essential?
- don't think so - even though they were 'limited' to run spirits, splinter, cast weapon spells, heal/prot or deal mid/close-range damage, they were not the most crappy class in the game. they were playable as they were, wanted in end-game pve. heck, ritualists can even use daggers for fun and they're fine.

* were the most underpowered and limited classes addressed?
- nope...

and it's not just my gameplay. give more fun and power to those already wanted in groups // having various viable builds available and don't buff the most crippled ones - all after five months - it's wasting resources.

Shasgaliel · Feb 20, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Funny thing is that the most vocal are people no longer playing the game or playing it solo. Even if 10k players leave due to SF or 600 nerf it will be hardly noticeable by the rest. Fun update though.

Xsiriss · Feb 20, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Sorry,and your 4 months late (late in the month it's meant to be finished in) for that? I was expecting many more tactics and a few more hammer elite changes. Not impressed.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

take a look at the effects then. i know that not everything was given - and i underline this part - but all the discussion is based on what actually was, so...

* will hammer be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as knockdowns are still inferior to simply killing

* will tactics be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as killing is better than 'some' use of the tactics line, and if you need support, take a paragon rather than a warrior who can achieve high DPS (therefore, choosing DPS on strength over tactics)

* will ritualists use newly buffed skills?
- maybe, but usually those that got bored with spirit spamming. and after they get their break, they will spirit spam again, just a little bit slower. n/rt abuse spreads a bit and that's actually all.

* was the ritualist buff essential?
- don't think so - even though they were 'limited' to run spirits, splinter, cast weapon spells, heal/prot or deal mid/close-range damage, they were not the most crappy class in the game. they were playable as they were, wanted in end-game pve. heck, ritualists can even use daggers for fun and they're fine.

* were the most underpowered and limited classes addressed?
- nope...

and it's not just my gameplay. it's wasting limited resources.

I assume that Test Crewe activity isn't useless, and EVEN IF hammer WON'T be as cookie-cutter as other builds, it will be made more viable. Not necessarily competitive, but more viable. I think after long years of being pretty much neglected in pve, hammer users wouldn't mind this, really ... since they already got used to the underdog/specialist mindset, where in some circumstances you are good, and in everything else, there are much better options.

Plus, it will come down to playing the game itself, and certainly not theorising how bad/cool something is.

Desert Rose · Feb 20, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

One thing of concern is the proposed change to Aggressive refrain... cracked armor is a lot easier to deal with than a perma -20 AR. (...) Consider this, what will happen when you're an imbagon with Aggressive refrain up and you use "Save yourselves!". You're stuck at 60 AR and everyone else shoots up 100 AR, making you a very tempting squishy for every foe around.

No, Cracked Armor every time a shout or chant ends on you is far worse than -20 armor straight. Also, you have 80 + 16 + 10 armor, so even with Aggressive Refrain up you still have 86 armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

3. Ele damage in HM is bad for being the "DPS class," (...)

Expect that eles are meant to be a DPS class in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(...) it also means a nerf to all the blasted ritu baddies that use it!

How so? Monsters still get bonus damage to skills for every level over 20, and bosses will still hit for double damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I really don't see the need to nerf OF.

It's the basis of nearly every ele solo farm build and was used in SC before SF; if they nerf SF and leave OF as it is everybody will just switch back to it.

Spiritz · Feb 20, 2010, 11:32 AM // 11:32

I agree with drkn with regards to what they change in pve also affects monsters/foes - i wonder if anyone agrees that maybe anet shud finally sort 1 skill thats been bugged for ages - chilling victory as its 2nd effect which states -
Scythe Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17...20 damage. If you targeted a foe who had less Health than you, that foe and all adjacent foes are struck for 15...51...60 cold damage.
now dont get me wrong but "if it hits" to me means it has to hit - you have sf sin , say daggers sf you take dmg when it misses is wrong and after a few yrs they still wont fix the bug or reword the skill - btw im using perma sf as a gd example but any profession with a block skill will still take 2nd dmg.

And yes a lot of us had sins before anet did their buff/nerf/buff/nerf/ slight buff and we still farmed some bosses .
Why not add to elite areas enviroment effects - most speedclears in uw/fow have maybe 1 party member who requires perm bonds/enchants and im sure enviroment effect that makes bonds/enchants harder to keep up would be better.
And im sure many will agree - wiping sf totally is bad as not every perma sin does sc/uw/fow/dungeons but may use sf outside those areas.My sins never done sc nor rampaged thru uw using perma sf to gain huge amounts of money - yes it uses perma sf for some farming and running places and i think only dungeons ive ever done was 2 - punchout and the part dungeon on the primary.
As for being able to get players using other builds and pugging - gw can be pug unfriendly.
Days of ursan you could sit in toa for eg and it would be pugs of high rank of norn only and if below r7 you had no chance.If you wanted to rep farm norn you had to be high norn rank.Least with perma sf you had an easier chance to get into a pug and do things.
And whats going to happen to vs farming with both perma sf and obby being hit - are vs spears going to rise in price as no one is going to try and farm them ? ( ive also never vs farmed ).
Are certain items going to be way above most ppls price range - obby armor you need to mortgage your gh just to afford ectos , it may even cause another influx of gold sellers as ppl will feel the need to get easy cash regardless.

Next thurs after update i`ll probably be in some district in a memorial service for all those obby eles and perma sf sins who will retire and probably never be seen again.

Thats my bit done so im going to go and setup a gw business making graves and headstones for the 2 professions above and get rich from it ( WTS tomestone and graves ) or maybe setup a nice retirement home somewhere nice - maybe in north kryta.
:P